Noise problem help please

[Vizsla]

Good evening all hope you don't mind me dropping in to pick your brains!
I brought a brand new 3 bed semi 6 months ago and were having noise issues, long story but hear goes when our neighboors moved in we could here every foot step, mainly upstairs every door window etc being closed the washing machine anything being dropped etc, I'm well aware of what to expect in a semi so I called in the builders, two managers went in a house each and spoke on the phone whilst making noises, I could hear the phone call and at one point he said yes I can hear that sounds like stomping and the chap replied I'm just walking lightly across the lounge! Anyway the builders acnolidged there is clearly a issue and got a sound man in, I got talking to the sound man who said this is a waste of time as your problem is impact noise and all I am here to test is airbourne, so I mentioned this to the builder and told him I hope your not gona get your pass for airbourne and brush it under the carpet, " no no we wouldn't do that" low and behould they did.
I'm in the building trade myself so have a fair idea regards the building but I'm trying to work out what could be causing the noise, oh also nearly every other semi on the estate have complained, the dividing wall is 100mm insulated cavity with concrete block and finished with dot and dab, the house is on a hill so ours is sleightly lower than next door, the floor joists go into the dividing wall and seem well fitted with no gaps and iv added acoustic mastic, I read a nhbc article regards incorrect dot and dab making noise worse by creating a drumming affect so I checked mine and it's not good no solid ribbon top and bottom and few dabs, it sound very hollow compared to what I'm use to on site, apparently the only difference between our homes and ones on previous sites with no problems is they used a parge coat and no insulation in the cavity were as our has no parge but insulation, it's with labc rather than nhbc, hope iv remembered everything but I can help more if you need any more info, oh the noise is apparently worse on our side.
I thought it could be mortar build up in the cavity but I removed my meter box and from what I could see it was clear and all insulated.
Please help if you can it's sending us mad, the noise is loader than the noise created by us in our own home.
I'm hands on so will check anything you may recommend.
Thanks a lot

 

[NewHomeExpert]

It sounds like you have a traditional brick/block new home: (Timber frame is asking for trouble with noise!)
The floor joists should not go into the party (dividing) wall.
They should be on hangers.
The party wall should be constructed using dense blocks and stainless steel butterfly wall ties.
The face of the blockwork should be rendered with sand:cement skim to ensure any small gaps are completely covered if it is plasterboard finish.
You will have to make a hole wall or ceiling or floor to have a look to check.
If any of these have not been done it will be very expensive to put right and everyone including the NHBC will do everything to get out of doing anything!

At least the joist are staggered and the cavity is insulated which should help with flanking (around the end of the party wall) sound.
As for so called impact sound, sound is sound however it gets into to your home, whatever the regulations may say!
If your house is bad and other homes are OK then there is an issue.
From what you have said and the amount of noise and detail you can hear, it does seem like you have a big hole/gap in the wall somewhere.
Perhaps it is time to get the NHBC involved.

Who is the house builder so others can avoid their shoddy workmanship?

 

[JAKing]

To find the gap, and if you can access one, try a thermograph either a camera or a surface heat detector (you can hire these) i would wait for a particularly cold day, open the windows in each room, thus deliberately let each connecting room on your side of the semi become much colder than the house next door. leave for a couple of hours (maybe go out for lunch or something so you don't suffer so much in a cold home) Then use the temp monitor to monitor the connecting wall. warmer areas of wall may well constitute an area of poor wall insulation.
without the need to drill holes at random.

Just a thought, also you would have evidence (via the photos) to prove the poor workmanship to the NHBC - thus cause them to act.

 

[Vizsla]

Evening thanks for the great replies there realy appreciated, here's a bit more info, I got a copy of the robust details and from what I can see it shows the joists built in to the party wall, it also shows insulation in the block cavity and no render coat apparently this changed to be more about thermal rather than noise, I took the floor up next to the wall hoping to find shoddy pointing and holes but it was all good I then added flexible sealant around the joists because they hadn't! And I installed acoustic mineral wool in the first 5 foot from the wall under the floor but this had no effect?
There still building our homes on the site and iv had a nosy and can't find any obvious problems. I found the dot and dab dosnt have a solid ribbon around the boards but don't no if this would cause such a severe problem?
I had wondered if maybe a joist from one property could be touching the other property but surly this would be noticed?
We're struggling to thing of anything else to check so your help will be great as like you say I'm better finding the problem before I get labc In
Many thanks

 

[NewHomeExpert]

Since you have confirmed the Robust Details used, the only explanation is these have not be adhered to in one or more respects.
As your house is lower than adjoining homes it is very likely that the joist are staggered and at least one block skin is behind your joists.
So ,yes, it is possible that one or more joists go through the cavity and either actually touch the inside face of your neighbour's party wall or the joist protruded enough and mortar droppings built up on this bridging the cavity.

The other and in my opinion most likely, is that there is no insulation in the party wall cavity.
Perhaps the numpty that did your cavity insulation thought that it wasn't required as it is an internal wall.
It is likely that your home [and your neighbours] does not have ANY cavity insulation at all though.
It is more common than most people think.
If the house is drylined before the insulation is done it does not get done unless the site manager is on the ball - most are not and don't care anyway!

The only way to check the cavities to see is by an endoscope camera.
Ask the house builder or LABC (pity it wasn't the NHBC - you'll find out why!) to investigate and you must be there to see the camera picture yourself.

I again ask: Who is the house builder so others can avoid their shoddy workmanship?

 

[Vizsla]

Since you have confirmed the Robust Details used, the only explanation is these have not be adhered to in one or more respects.
As your house is lower than adjoining homes it is very likely that the joist are staggered and at least one block skin is behind your joists.
So ,yes, it is possible that one or more joists go through the cavity and either actually touch the inside face of your neighbour's party wall or the joist protruded enough and mortar droppings built up on this bridging the cavity.

The other and in my opinion most likely, is that there is no insulation in the party wall cavity.
Perhaps the numpty that did your cavity insulation thought that it wasn't required as it is an internal wall.
It is likely that your home [and your neighbours] does not have ANY cavity insulation at all though.
It is more common than most people think.
If the house is drylined before the insulation is done it does not get done unless the site manager is on the ball - most are not and don't care anyway!

The only way to check the cavities to see is by an endoscope camera.
Ask the house builder or LABC (pity it wasn't the NHBC - you'll find out why!) to investigate and you must be there to see the camera picture yourself.

I again ask: Who is the house builder so others can avoid their shoddy workmanship?

Hi thanks again I removed our electric meter box which is on the front just our side of the party wall and was able to get my hand round the corner into the party wall and there was definataly insulation in place(rd party roll I think) but obviously that just a small area, there other houses having the same problem which make me think it wouldn't be the same mistake over!
At this stage I'm not prepared to bad name the developer as I'm yet to find the fault but Il be happy to if I find it, there not on your list of company's but are quite a large developer part of a even larger group.
Il also be happy to make a donation once I get a little further along.
I thought about getting a camera but presumed I wouldn't be able to see much in a full filled cavity?
Thanks

 

[NewHomeExpert]

The camera would confirm the cavity was filled.
Taking our the electric meter cabinet is dangerous and should nto be attempted by anyone who is not a qualified electrician.
Don't be too sure the same mistake wouldn't have been made over and over.
If housebuilder's trades don't know what they are doing..............................

Regarding donations, these are normally based [and justified] on the help and advice you received, not subject to an outcome of a third-party such as your house builder!

Not sure what else I can help you with here so good luck!

 

[JAKing]

really i will repeat, use a thermographic camera, this will help you no end in knowing where to dig deeper as it were, they are expensive to buy but very reasonable to hire.
one thing i cant understand though:-
why on earth would they fit an electric meter box to the dividing wall of a semi detached house? usually there would only be either a) an electric meter and a consumer unit on a wall in somewhere like the cupboard under the stairs (which would not have a box), or B) a meter in a meter box located outside the property on the outside of an external wall.

 

[Vizsla]

really i will repeat, use a thermographic camera, this will help you no end in knowing where to dig deeper as it were, they are expensive to buy but very reasonable to hire.
one thing i cant understand though:-
why on earth would they fit an electric meter box to the dividing wall of a semi detached house? usually there would only be either a) an electric meter and a consumer unit on a wall in somewhere like the cupboard under the stairs (which would not have a box), or B) a meter in a meter box located outside the property on the outside of an external wall.

Hi thanks for the advice it's all taken on board,
The meter box is on the front external wall just next to the junction of the party wall so I was able to get my arm around, and don't worry I'm qualified, I'm going to remove the dot and dab in our bedroom on the party wall the weekend as I think this could be part of the problem, plus it gives me access to the wall to drill holes into cavity to check for insulation and plus ad a render soundblock coat to see if this improves things. Fingers crossed
Thanks

 

[JAKing]

Ahh, I see. Thanks for that, i just could not imagine why your builder would have put an external meter box on the inside of your partition wall, but that answers that one

 

[Vizsla]

Ahh, I see. Thanks for that, i just could not imagine why your builder would have put an external meter box on the inside of your partition wall, but that answers that one

No problem chap thanks for the help

Bit more info on my problem, I made a small hole in the dot and dab wall in our bedroom then placed my phone playing a song in there, quiet enough that if I stood back I couldn't hear it then I went down stairs to the other end of the house in the toilet, put my ear to the wall and I could here it as clear as with my ear to the wall in our bedroom!
Iv since removed the dot&dab from the wall in our bedroom which had small dots of dab and no solid ribbon around the edge and it's hard to tell but I'd say if anything the noise is beter!
Would be great if anyone has any opinions on this, thanks

 

[NewHomeExpert]

My opinion is that you are interfering with your house and any claim with the NHBC and/or against your builder will now be harder to make!
It is in the Gypsum white book that the perimeters of rooms be solid continuously dabbed.
Dot/dab centres should be 300mm vertically and horizontally (4 per 1200mm board width)
NHBC standard 8.2 S.3 (f) applies.
This says: "f) gap sealing. A continuous ribbon of adhesive should be applied to the perimeter of external walls, openings and services in drylined walls to prevent air infiltration. In addition:
* dry linings should be completely taped and filled at board joints and at abutments to ceilings and internal walls
* dry wall lining at door and window openings should be securely fixed and filled. This also applies at external and internal corners
* gaps around service points, electric sockets, light switches, etc should be filled with jointing compound."

In addition, plasterboard should meet BS 1230 and be installed to the BS 8212 Code of Practice.

 

[JAKing]

My opinion is that you are interfering with your house and any claim with the NHBC and/or against your builder will now be harder to make!

I would have to agree with NHE on this point, Any thing "interference" wise you do to inspect your home, could potentially open the " you caused the problem by doing this inspection" answer.

None destructive, none interference, none invasive techniques to gain your evidence there is a problem must be the first choice, thus they cant play the "blame game" with you. If it were me, I would only be drilling and sticking my hands into something as a last resort, after all other efforts had failed.

I have no doubt you are indeed a qualified and competent builder/electrician. of that i have no doubt, but please beware of the "it was you doing this that caused the problem" response, the "blame you to get us off the hook game".

Think of it like this, you could be the best car mechanic (or sorry technician as they are known these days) in the world. If you buy a brand new car and it breaks down after 35 miles what do you do? do you fix it, do you even open the bonnet to look at it? - no you would phone the dealer who sold you it to come and sort it, once you start to tinker and take off say the cylinder head to ensure the pistons are all ok, then you have just given rise to the excuse "sorry sir, you took off the cylinder head, that voids your warranty"

 

[Vizsla]

I would have to agree with NHE on this point, Any thing "interference" wise you do to inspect your home, could potentially open the " you caused the problem by doing this inspection" answer.

None destructive, none interference, none invasive techniques to gain your evidence there is a problem must be the first choice, thus they cant play the "blame game" with you. If it were me, I would only be drilling and sticking my hands into something as a last resort, after all other efforts had failed.

I have no doubt you are indeed a qualified and competent builder/electrician. of that i have no doubt, but please beware of the "it was you doing this that caused the problem" response, the "blame you to get us off the hook game".

Think of it like this, you could be the best car mechanic (or sorry technician as they are known these days) in the world. If you buy a brand new car and it breaks down after 35 miles what do you do? do you fix it, do you even open the bonnet to look at it? - no you would phone the dealer who sold you it to come and sort it, once you start to tinker and take off say the cylinder head to ensure the pistons are all ok, then you have just given rise to the excuse "sorry sir, you took off the cylinder head, that voids your warranty"

Thanks both of you for the advice, to be honest I was of the same mindset myself but I spoke to a few different people regards a labc claim and they all said that I will only get one chance and noise usiues arnt usually taken very seriously, and ids are I'm wasting my time apparently it's unlikely they will do any digging of there ownnd the only way to get them to act is by finding problems and actually showing them!

 

[NewHomeExpert]

Thanks both of you for the advice, to be honest I was of the same mindset myself but I spoke to a few different people regards a labc claim and they all said that I will only get one chance and noise usiues arnt usually taken very seriously, and ids are I'm wasting my time apparently it's unlikely they will do any digging of there ownnd the only way to get them to act is by finding problems and actually showing them!

LABC claim You won't get very far with them!
You should have bought a house from a builder with NHBC warranty. Its not great, but better than anything else.
Still, as always, you know best, ignoring good advice and doing your own thing, demolishing your house bit by bit!

I have no doubt you are indeed a qualified and competent builder/electrician

I don't think he is JAKing, he hasn't a clue what he is doing or looking for!

 

[JAKing]

LABC claim You won't get very far with them!
You should have bought a house from a builder with NHBC warranty.

Trouble is he did not, and he has not. We are where we are, its all well and good stating what should have happened but sadly it does not do much good to find out how poor your stable door is after your horse has kicked it in and bolted, Though I do freely admit it is good advise for a newer buyer, it does not help the person on the thread much

Still, as always, you know best, ignoring good advice and doing your own thing, demolishing your house bit by bit!

Sure some people will take advise some wont, but rubbing their nose in it wont help much. Its a good thing you offer good advise, and i can personally vouch for the fact that is true. Its just, "you can lead a horse to water", if it chooses not to drink then there is no need for bashing or name calling. The guy asked for advise, he got it, he can take it or leave it, it is after all his house and his warranty, I under stand you are very, very, very experienced in the area of new homes NHE, and like I say your advise to me has been priceless (especially the recommendation for a snagger you gave me) but there is no need to take someone ignoring your advise so personally.

I am more of a "there is a noose over there, do not under any circumstances put that around your neck, and most certainly if you do that anyway, dont let anyone pull that lever over there, that would be really bad" some people would take my advise, others would ignore it.

still that's life, and I for one truly hope you get a good result Viszla, that has to be the key issue

 

[Vizsla]

Trouble is he did not, and he has not. We are where we are, its all well and good stating what should have happened but sadly it does not do much good to find out how poor your stable door is after your horse has kicked it in and bolted, Though I do freely admit it is good advise for a newer buyer, it does not help the person on the thread much



Sure some people will take advise some wont, but rubbing their nose in it wont help much. Its a good thing you offer good advise, and i can personally vouch for the fact that is true. Its just, "you can lead a horse to water", if it chooses not to drink then there is no need for bashing or name calling. The guy asked for advise, he got it, he can take it or leave it, it is after all his house and his warranty, I under stand you are very, very, very experienced in the area of new homes NHE, and like I say your advise to me has been priceless (especially the recommendation for a snagger you gave me) but there is no need to take someone ignoring your advise so personally.

I am more of a "there is a noose over there, do not under any circumstances put that around your neck, and most certainly if you do that anyway, dont let anyone pull that lever over there, that would be really bad" some people would take my advise, others would ignore it.

still that's life, and I for one truly hope you get a good result Viszla, that has to be the key issue

Wow that means a lot chap, iv no interest in getting into a online argue ment with some chap iv never met. As the name ses he's a new home expert but yet he stated all new build semi joints should be on hanger, wrong and have a parge render coat, wrong but I was big enough to overlook this wrong advice, not quite sure what iv done wrong to upset him unless it's because I wasn't prepared to send him money after he replied twice!
Iv taken all advice on board and used it along side my own knowledge and others who I know, I'm the director of a electrical company I also own a joinery shop, iv developed property's and been in the building trade long enough, iv had a sound engineer to the house and also the Forman of a new housing company I do many houses for, I didn't mention this before as nobody likes a no it all smart arse.
NHE has said his arsy reply and iv said mine so let's leave it at that unless there's a overwhelming need to reply

Any thank you very much chap for your help, your a goodun doing it out the kindness of your heart, hopefully il get the problem sorted
Cheers

 

[NewHomeExpert]

You know all this yet it is you with a noise issue in a brand new home?

By the way I am never "wrong" there is always more than one way to comply with regulations.
The same regulations are changed and updated from time to time so what applies to a particular new home will depend on what regulations were in force when it was Building Regulation Plan approval and perhaps when it was built!

Trying to diagnose what the likely cause of your noise problem is from distance without seeing or inspecting anything to try and help you, is not that easy.
You are actually living there and you still come on here and ask for help!