NHBC Resolution and plumbing/ heating problems

[Maitri]

Hi - never used a forum before so not really sure if I should have added this to another thread or start my own? We are in a newbuild, we bought the property a year ago (it had been previously lived in for 18 months by an elderly man who died). When we moved in there was still 2 years left of the builders liability under the NHBC warranty. We had not been told by our seller that there had been serious problems with plumbing, flooding etc.. When we moved in we found that every radiator in the house was leaking. The builders plumber came out and said that "no self respecting plumber would ever use plastic pipe above ground even if they use it below, that you can't get a good connection to a radiator without using copper." We realise this is a contentious issue, the plastic / MLC / copper argument. The builders plumber came out and attempted to re-fit pipe to radiators but said we would always have problems. We wrote to the builder and said we were clearly not happy with leaking radiators for ever more and having to pay someone to come in and refit every year!

We were getting nowhere with the builders and started writing to the Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineers who have been most helpful. They have said:

"To answer your specific question; plumbing and heating installation work comes under the requirements of both the Building Regulations and the Water Regulations, both of which contain requirements for the correct installation of pipework and fittings, and for their installation to be fit for purpose, installed in a workmanlike manner and to be appropriately tested.

If the pipework is installed and tested as per requirements of the appropriate regulations (and the Standards referenced in those regulations) there should not be problems such as those that you have encountered. In addition, where plastic pipework is concerned, it is important to ensure that the pipework and fittings have been installed as per the manufacturers installation instructions "

They helped us track down the MLC pipe used at the property in order to try to ascertain what fittings should have been used. WRAS confirmed it to be a pipe made in China, no longer approved in the UK, Ginde's Pert-Al-Pert. As it is no longer used anywhere in Europe trying to get the information regarding fittings has been difficult.

We have had water down our kitchen wall from fautly plumbing in the bathroom and have had a further two leaks in the bathroom. We have found out that none of the plumbing on the estate was pressure tested before floor / ceilings etc were put down and when it was connected up to the supply it leaked like a sieve. The previous owner we have subsequently found out had the property flooded whilst he was away, and we have now found that properties 27 - 43 (odd numbers only) have all been effected by faulty plumbing, with only 43 (first house on estate sold) being re-plumbed downstairs.

In the winter of 2010 we started to have problems getting hot water. Our boiler and heating system was covered by Domestic & General. D&G came out in the New Year and on looking at the boiler asked to see the Benchmark Certificate (we haven't got one). The hot water heat exchange was full of swarf and sludge which in their opinion indicated that the system could not have been commissioned from new. They refused to do the repair and wrote to us advising us to contact the builder as in their opinion if the system had been commissioned it would not need power flushing. We now have a 2 1/ 2 year old boiler and heating system that D&G will not cover.

The builder didn't want to know so we contacted the NHBC.
We explained to the NHBC the problems we have had and that the builder knew about the problems with plumbing/heating across the estate.
The NHBC wrote to the builder.
There followed several offensive and upsetting e-mails from the builder.
The resolution service is now involved.
We have now been without heat or hot water for 10 weeks.
What we are trying to establish is how best we can get this matter addressed.
Reading what I have read on this website today about the NHBC I am convinced we need a report on the state of the plumbing / boiler.
We contacted the CIPHE a few weeks ago who put us in touch with some 'experts'.
However one of the 'experts' said we may be able to claim the cost of a report through our building's insurance.
We have asked the NHBC if they will look at the problems with plumbing across the estate as we have all suffered with floods / leaks and boiler problems.

So can anyone tell us:

1. if the NHBC should look at the problem as a whole or if we all need to register our complaints individually. We have spoken with the other residents and they have all suffered bullying from the builders MD resulting in them giving up. All are now keen to get this matter addressed as ONE problem rather than several claims based on what we are trying to establish with regards the standard of plumbing on the estate.

2. if we need to get an independent 'expert' report written BEFORE the NHBC come to the property? Obviously we do not want to be left with both the builder and the NHBC telling us, as the MD has, that the problems with leaks / boiler etc is down to us not bleeding the radiators !!

3. if anything other than an 'expert' report would be worth the paper it is written on. Expert report likely cost £500, reputable local heating engineer report £70, but would builder simply say, as he has done that it's "just local rival firms of plumbers competing for business."

4. getting building insurer to cover cost of 'expert' would be under our legal cover, so would NHBC pull out of their resolution service if we get legal cover under our building insurer?

It is really hard to know that to do. Obviously we do not want to pay £500 for a report and all that is needed is some new fittings for radiators and a power flush for the boiler.

Any advice anyone, other than move!

PS We have slippage of our double glazed units in doors and some windows, we have been told again that this is due to the windows not being 'packed' properly and that this can damage seals and result in double glazed units breaking down. Builder says this is a maintenance issue and he is ALWAYS having to have his windows and doors re-packed!! What do you think?

Builder is in the process of getting Buildmarks on another 13 properties and has 15 properties in all still to sell, so is it worth going to local paper on this?

Sorry this is long, just feel really desperate about what to do.

[SteveF]

Hi there could you clear something up for me please.....

You say that the home is about 2.5 years old however also say that there is 2 years of the builders warranty left.

The builder is contractually obliged to rectify all defects and non compliances with NHBC Standards which he is advised of before expiry of the first 2 years after the NHBC issued the Warranty Cover Note.

Was the builder advised of these heating defects before the end of the 2 years?

SteveF

[Maitri]

Hi thanks for your reply, reading through I can see that I have not made myself clear. When we moved in we had the last 6 months of the 2 years builders warranty left. The builder was not only notified of the problems with the plumbing but knew about the problems with the plumbing across the estate. However, the NHBC reconciliation interpret a notified plumbing problem as a specific leak in a specific pipe not a problem with the whole plumbing system that resulted in those leaks.

[SteveF]

Hi there

Ok i can see the issue now.

What exactly did you inform the builder of within the two years? Are you aware of any plumbing or heating defects having been reported by the previous owner?

SteveF

[Maitri]

Hi there again it has been a while since I posted this. In the meantime I got reports from neighbours including the house that the builder had to re-plumb as it was easier than trying to find a leak below floor level!! NHBC came out and looked, which is when I realised that they do not look at the problem as a whole but specific problems notified. So if, as in our case, the problem notified was for instance a leaking radiator pipe (we had 10 leaking radiator pipes), and those leaking pipes were mended, one or 3 of those pipes leaking again would be seen as a new problem not one notified in the 2 years even though the repair clearly was not satisfactory!! Amazing. What we are now seeking to establish is how the NHBC get away with this very narrow interpretation of consumer law!! So a Report was sent to the NHBC notifying them of the plumbing problems across the estate which they have said they will look at as a whole, but we are not holding our breath!! It is more likely they will reply saying something like: "The builder has dealt with the plumbing problems as they occured but after the 2 years they are no longer liable" even though the installation clearly breached regulations from Day 1 and consumers have 6 years to bring a case for problems inherent in the system or due to a faulty installation.

We have been given a solicitor via our home insurance but again we are not hopeful as he has written saying "it would be wise to consider what the NHBC have to say"!!!

As you may or may not know consumer law states products / installation must be 'durable ' and 'fit for purpose', reading what I have now read about plastic pipe and the fittings breaking down etc I am left wondering how plastic plumbing ever passed the durable / fit for purpose clause. NOBODY ever had to worry about plumbing in a property, on another forum someone wrote: "I can show you plumbing that is 200 years old and never leaked but can anyone show me plastic plumbing that is 20 years old and not leaking? " So why have we decided to subject people to it? As I have said, the first property on this estate to be sold had a leak which the builder could not track so he re-plumbed. If any of the other properties had a leak below floor level we would all be in the same position. You can't access the below floor joints without digging up the whole floor, not accessing joints on well fitted copper is one thing but on plastic pipe that has already shown so many problems what do we do? We are still without hot water or heating and a posting on another forum confirms there are no easy answers to put right a situation that seems to be so widespread that nobody questions what is happening / why it is happening and what the consequences are for people in new builds .

Thanks for your reply

PS plumber was notified of leaking radiator pipes, leaking hot water pipes to taps, leaking bath in the 6 months we had of the warranty.

The other 6 properties affected seem to all have problems with boilers losing pressure, pipes popping, floods due to shower pipes, loo pipes etc etc.

[SteveF]

Hi

I will try to be helpful without giving you anything that could be construed as professional advice which i am sure you will agree is not possible without my having carried out an appraisal of the situation including a review of correspondence and subsequent inspection of the defects.

For the record i am a Professionally Qualified Chartered Builder (MCIOB), Corporate Building Engineer (MBEng) and Technically Qualified Member of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors (AssocRICS). I have extensive construction discipline experience (30yrs) and have successfully resolved both Builder and NHBC disputes.

The first point you should consider is the information below which is an extract from NHBC Technical Standards. A Builder who is Registered with the NHBC and is authorised to issue NHBC Buildmark Warranties must construct those dwellings which are subject to the warranty to the minimum standards set out by the NHBC. These standards are identified in the NHBC Technical Requirements which are updated by the NHBC on a fairly regular basis.
The Requirements R1 - R5 are mandatory and therefore can be relied upon when used to challenge both the Builder and the NHBC with regards to defective works.

You will see that R1/R2/R3/R4 appear to be very relevant in your situation.

R1 Statutory requirements
Work shall comply with all relevant
Building Regulations and other statutory
requirements relating to the completed
construction work

R2 Design requirement
Design and specification shall provide
satisfactory performance

R3 Materials requirement
All materials, products and building
systems shall be suitable for their
intended purpose

R4 Workmanship requirement
All work shall be carried out in a proper,
neat and workmanlike manner

R5 Structural design requirement
Structural design shall be carried out by suitably
qualified persons in accordance with British
Standards and Codes of Practice

My general advice to you would be;

- Not to involve legal representation in court proceedings or threat of yet
- Deal with both the Builder and NHBC in writing only
- Get whatever free documented advice you can from Professional Bodies
- Raise the issue with your local authority Building Control department
- Continue down the path of site wide plumbing issues with NHBC
- Canvas full support from all of the other property owners
- Dont give up the pressure with the NHBC because they will want to try and grind you down

Finally you must convince the other owners that a short term fix will not be satisfactory as it seems to me that the plumbing problems will continue to be a source of trouble unless you get to the route of the problems and eradicate them. This may necessitate a total new system.

[Maitri]

Hi there again and thanks for comprehensive reply. Prior to February 2010 I didn't know anything about plumbing or boilers, since then I feel I have got caught in the midst of a copper vs plastic argument and from what I have read it feels like there is a need for some BIG questions to be asked and answered by the industry as to what kind of standards equal 'regulation' standard as it looks like what the average person would consider sub-standard is now simply accepted as "what should be expected of plastic pipe". Had our surveyor told us that the house had plastic plumbing that could leak and would therefore require access to joints below floor which would require digging up the floors and even if it didn't leak for 10 years to expect fittings to break down within 20 years, tbh I know I would not have gone for this property. I lived in my last property 34 years and never had to think about the plumbing throughout that time. Indeed our first boiler lasted 30 years with only the thermo-couple (?) ever needing replacing. Now we are told we will be lucky if our boilers last 10 and that is called progress !!

I have done everything I can the past 9 months to get this matter addressed. Building Control was via the NHBC, local Building Control will not even acknowledge my letters. The CIPHE have been very helpful as were WRAS but their advice to contact Wessex Water didn't really develop into anything supportive. Wessex Water said the industry hate plastic pipe, they said that if it is used then access to the joints should be provided otherwise leaks are difficult to trace which is why, we assume the builder re-plumbed the property that did have a leak below floor level.

I feel the actual problem across the board is difficult for me to be clear about because of this whole issue of "well that's just plastic plumbing" and most plumbers response to plastic plumbing. Currently we have a boiler that is 'choc-a-block' full of swarf / sludge which D&G will not repair because they believe it was not commissioned from new. We have leaking radiators + bath taps and from what we have heard across the estate any pipe across the house could go at any time (our neighbours are worried about going away), what is more we all know that if a pipe starts to leak below floor level it could require a re-plumb! Yet for all of that, this sounds like it is now considered normal and not in breach of any regulations. Yet I am left asking, how many people, having paid to have a plumbing /heating system installed would think it would be acceptable to have to re-plumb if there is a leak that cannot be traced below floor level? Or acceptable to have to keep getting leaks repaired ?

Of course nobody on the estate wants to have to accept the heating /plumbing under these terms, yet it would seem, as I have already said, that this is simply how things are now that the industry has moved away from copper. I am therefore left asking, if this is standard and everyone expects plastic to leak and the joints etc not to last, then why isn't it installed in a way that allows for easy access ? Why aren't people told by surveyors that plastic plumbing is not like copper and will give rise to problems and will require replacing (at least connections) within 20 years before they make a choice to buy a property? Plumbers I have spoken with say we are storing up problems fitting it, and I have read on many insurers websites that 70% of their workload is floods due to plastic pipe.

So yes a difficult situation that is being made all the more difficult by the industry /building regulations / NHBC etc all seemingly OK ing plumbing that to all intents and purposes everyone seems to agree brings with it problems that copper never did without any advantages!

I will post on here again when we hear back from the NHBC. Thanks again for your support with this

[SteveF]

Hi

For what its worth, in my opinion the issue is not one of plastic pipe and fittings v traditional copper. I make this statement based on my experience of successfully installing heating and water pipework to thousands of homes with this relatively recent technology.

Thermo plastic technology has advanced in leaps and bounds and can when installed correctly, using materials that comply to all of the relevant British Standards, provide for very efficient systems that don't suffer from the common expansion and contraction creaking issues that can be apparent with copper pipework.

I think that the issue here is twofold. A use of materials that do not comply to the UK's stringent standards and secondly, installation by guys that perhaps did not know what they were dealing with.
Both issues are covered by the MANDATORY R1 - R5 sections of the NHBC Technical Requirements.

As for the Local Authority Building Control not wanting anything to do with it because NHBC did the building control inspection I would revisit them and tell them that you insist as the Enforcing Authority (under legislation they are responsible for enforcing building regulations compliance and standards) they should take a look ....or maybe you would be asking your MP to speak with the Head of Building control on your behalf.

[Maitri]

Hi thanks again. It is reassuring to know that plastic can work and that perhaps we have got grounds for investigation. I will certainly have another go with the Building Regulations as this has been my main point with the NHBC that the builder currently hides behind being given the Buildmark Certificate based on compliance with Building Regulations, and sees his only duty to repair the leaks for 2 years that came about due to non-compliance, not address the actual problems. I will keep you posted, thanks again

[Maitri]

Steve F I cannot thank you enough for your posts today.
I am wondering however if you could help clarify what normally happens with plastic pipe and joints below floor level. With old copper pipe systems in older properties with floor boards and voids below floor level, accessing pipes on the rare occasion they would need to be accessed wasn't a big problem. However, with modern properties like ours with concrete beam and block flooring with moisture resistant tongue and groove chipboard laid on sound slab Celotex, accessing under floor joints to try to track a leak isn't easy, so are there any regulations about accessibility of under floor joints? When the Wessex Water board man called at the property the first thing he looked for was a 'manifold', then he said joints below floor level should be accessible otherwise, as the builder has already found, trying to track a leak can be impossible. So are there any regulations with regard to accessing joints with plastic plumbing?